You're an international, award-winning podcaster and broadcaster who has covered an incredible range of topics from fashion to tech, science, and business – where did you get your start in all of this?
I started my career in broadcasting in 2008 at RNZ. I was lucky enough to be mentored by Jack Perkins - a legend in the industry who along with Alwyn Owens were the first broadcasters to record out in the field, as opposed to the confines of the studio environment. It was invaluable to learn from a master of this kind of recording technique, which revolutionised radio here in New Zealand. It’s a way of bringing stories to life where you get a chance to connect with people in their own element and give a greater sense of authenticity. Whereas, the studio can feel so static, and quite formal.
The foundation of my work is in producing very sound-rich, highly-produced radio documentaries and podcasts, while weaving in other types of sonic textural elements. Working with audio is a craft and an art form. But I was also able to lean in on my background in devised theatre. After graduating from UC, I trained as an actor at Toi Whakaari: NZ Drama School and my specialty was physical, devised theatre - my work was very visual. Transitioning to radio as a producer, it was very instinctive to introduce other ‘dramatic elements’ into my work and create ‘pictures with sound’ which gave it a unique feel.
Your most recent podcast project is the award winning Across the Board – a 7-part documentary series that delves into why good governance is essential in our everyday lives. What inspired you to dedicate a whole series to this topic?
Institute of Directors (IoD) were interested in adding podcasts to their content. My perspective was there was no point in using the single interview format as it has become a default in podcasting today. it can be difficult to have any cut-through in an environment where all the content starts sounding the same. Particularly on a topic like governance where people’s eyes can glaze over as soon as you mention the word, it can be quite distancing.
The approach was to create something that would have an impact, but would also be accessible for those who aren’t familiar with governance or the work of boards. Governance impacts everyone in the workforce, so it has a massive flow-on effect on employees and their ability to do their jobs.
It’s a documentary podcast series that is ultimately underpinned with strong storytelling and a balance of light and shade covering social issues, board dynamics, technology, the right to speak, climate, success and failure, and more.
One of the most fun episodes to make was ‘episode 6 - technology’ where I played around with the style to sit with the tech theme, and have a bit of fun. So it’s not all deeply serious, at least from a storytelling perspective.
The series was also recognised overseas and won Silver this year at the New York Festivals Radio Awards, which is a very prestigious international platform. Only the very best work is awarded based on merit - journalism, innovation in storytelling, and audio craft.
I learned so much about governance from the start of the process to the end. Plus, I had an opportunity to co-host with IoD’s inspirational CEO - Kirsten Patterson who was very patient and open to learning presentation skills, and she really nailed it. It also ticked off my dream to do a two-hander presentation. The international recognition for the series was the icing on the cake because it was a very time-intensive series to make, but it’s fantastic that it put IoD on the map.
Can you talk to us about leaving your broadcasting role to start your own podcasting production company Double Ten Media, and most recently your podcast news and reviews site, Close to the Mic?
Funnily enough, when I made the decision to leave my career in broadcasting, I told myself that I would be happy if I never made another podcast again! But while I was making Across the Board, I remember putting on my headphones for the first time in months and it really felt like coming home.
I had been working in broadcasting for more than a decade, and achieved everything I wanted to do, including winning Gold at the New York Festivals Radio Awards for women’s suffrage series, Beyond Kate. I also had the opportunity to present live-to-air shows, which I didn’t love as much as producing stand-alone, highly crafted audio content. I miss the broadcast environment and the amazingly talented people I got to work with, and I always felt a sense of pride heading to the RNZ office. Making the decision to leave was essentially to stretch myself outside of radio, as I started feeling constricted, and bored.
Live radio is definitely a craft, but nothing beats the creative side of producing where you get to sit with the audio and have a vision for what the final outcome will be.
Media, in general, continues to change rapidly, and I could see opportunities to fill gaps in the market. Having the ability to work with businesses to tell their stories in a really authentic way is very gratifying because while podcasting looks easy from the outset, a lot of businesses aren’t doing it particularly well in terms of best practice, or even thinking about the shape of a series and what is needed to elevate their content.
I get to do what I love, including teaching and mentoring others.
Launching Close to the Mic this year was partly about having a creative vision for a platform that serves the changes in the podcast industry, but also being able to pull from my extensive knowledge of production, the media environment, and the industry in general. It’s a privilege to write about and promote some fantastic, high quality podcasts that are being produced in New Zealand, Australia, and Asia, which helps to bridge some cultural gaps and create a sense of community, including being across trends and approaches to audio content.
There is so much competition in the market, and media outside of the radio environment are now producing podcasts and competing with each other. They get to sing their own praises, but Close to the Mic is an equaliser that brings these voices together in one space, and addresses wider industry changes and challenges.
Listening to a podcast for entertainment or education has totally become as commonplace as someone watching a movie or tv show – where do you see the industry fitting into the media landscape from now and into the future?
I have really strong thoughts on this. I think podcasting is here to stay, and the media in general have been quite slow to the party.
On the one hand, the accessibility of podcasting is positive in that it gives communities, individuals, and niche groups a chance to have a voice that might not otherwise be possible.
The downside is that a majority of podcasts haven’t been well executed. There’s a default to produce single interview formats, and unless you have a background in journalism, broadcasting, or a larger-than-life-personality that can bring the stories to life, the outcome is often very flat with no sense of direction. That’s largely due to a lack of understanding about how to navigate an interview, or knowledge of how to tell a story. As a result, the podcast market is oversaturated with cookie-cutter content where people end up conforming to - and replicating - the same mistakes over, and over again. So they don’t really add value to the audio landscape, or to the business environment if companies are using podcasts as a marketing tool.
I’m more interested in how the industry can grow, and that requires producers and those making podcasts to take creative risks, but also to upskill if they want to have some cut-through.
A good podcast can take a long time to make, and not all of them need to be that upper tier of high-level production values, but people (and businesses) should still be thinking about the shape of their podcast as a season or as an ongoing series. Does it have something for people to latch onto, what will they learn, are listeners getting the information they need fast enough, or are the hosts talking endlessly just to have a conversation?
These are all the questions that podcast makers need to ask themselves, including understanding why they are making one in the first place. Having a point of difference is also important, and the reasoning or justification to make a podcast shouldn’t be ‘just because everyone else is doing it’.
I’m passionate about the craft and the power of audio storytelling. If it’s approached in the right way you can have a massive impact on how people see the world, and even create change. And there is room to use it in an intelligent and sophisticated way to get people to buy your products.
In terms of the future of podcasting, AI is starting to creep in already as it’s doing with many industries now. I think technology has the potential to aid the production process, but in my mind, it’s about having the right approach and thinking really carefully about how it can be applied. Like anything relating to technology, the people using it should maximise creative opportunities because that’s what sets humans apart from robots and machines.
As with YouTube and other platforms, it will evolve with technology and that will also be informed by audience behaviour to create tailored experiences for users and creators.
Is there an area of interest that you would love to cover but haven’t had the opportunity to yet?
My interests are very broad, and I’ve covered so many types of content in a variety of styles that I don’t like to be limited.
Some of my favourite types of podcasts involve interviewing researchers. At RNZ I loved making episodes for the science podcast, Our Changing World, and my particular bent was looking at social psychology because there are so many aspects of human behaviour that link to everything we do, including affecting positive and negative social outcomes.
Equally, there are researchers in Across the Board from history to political science, modern slavery, and more, who discuss various aspects that relate to governance and business and society as whole. Having these kinds of elements in a series grounds the content, and it doesn’t have to be boring.
I would love to work with universities to create podcasts that speak to the amazing array of research taking place, whether it’s across technology, criminology, teaching…it could be anything really, but to help bring the stories and valuable research to life would be amazing.
What part of your job do you love the most, and what do you find most challenging?
I love having the ability to take creative risks when working with audio, and I let the story inform my creative approach, rather than layering something on top that doesn’t add anything.
There’s an arts story I produced early on in my career, where I won my very first award at the New York Festivals Radio Awards. I had taken inspiration from the TV series, Twin Peaks in terms of the style and feel. The interviewee specialised in film noir photography, so I had an idea to start the story as if I had been murdered. That sounds quite macabre, but while I was editing I had the image of Laura Palmer floating down the river, stuck in my head.
It was really fun to make. The recording was also tailored to fit the approach. I love working with audio and being able to let my imagination go because that means the audience’s imagination will be ignited as well. I’m really inspired by film, and even art, when it comes to my creative approach.
I’ve been really fortunate that my work strikes a chord overseas. I think having an outsider perspective as a Chinese woman born in New Zealand also enables me to look from the outside in, and dig beneath the layers. I’ve always believed in the universal appeal of storytelling, and its ability to transform people’s way of seeing and experiencing the world, but I like to entertain people as well.
I think the aspect I find challenging is more about the industry and people’s perceptions of what a podcast is, as opposed to anything about producing audio. There is some complacency around innovation and creativity in the industry. I think currently, the media and businesses are more intent on cashing in or vying for audiences for fear of losing them, so they’re pushing content out as fast as they can -- competition fuels that drive.
We all love a great story, and half the time it doesn’t even matter what it’s about, people will listen and learn something new if the storytelling is good enough. That’s something I learnt working in radio, especially when listeners would write in with messages about the work I had done on topics that they didn’t know much about, but they felt it opened their eyes. Radio is a strange beast - you essentially tell stories and have no idea if anyone at all is listening at all, and there is a kind of beauty in that, too.
I think where things get into tricky territory is when businesses or people are using podcasts as a marketing tool. There’s an art to crafting a story and subtly weaving in your brand message. But more often than not there are a lot of bad examples where it feels like you’re being hit over the head with hard-sell jargon, so the content lacks authenticity, and suffers as a result.
In these cases, marketers or brands might be wiser to pay for an ad-spot inside a popular podcast that speaks to their target market. Listeners are now used to this, and it’s probably more effective than investing time in making a podcast. That would solve the problem of oversaturation in the podcast space, as well as helping podcasters in the industry to monetise their audio content.
